| 1 | 2010-Jul-26 | issue: Economic Remedies Prescribed by the People
prop: PEOPLES BANK
I'm sad to report that I just received notice from Owen's (othomas) wife that he died on 20 July 2010. I want to honor his contribution to this issue and hope that many more will step in where he left off and see this issue reach a positive solution. (Ricardo) | prop. sug.
id:sug4136 |
| 2 | 2010-Jul-24 | Hotel, flight, restaurant in [url=bestturkeytravel.net]Turkey [/url]and in cities such as Istanbul, Bodrum and Ankar () | tech. support
id:tech4135 |
| 3 | 2010-Jul-5 | issue: Economic Remedies Prescribed by the People
thread: Gold Standard
Here's one of the best statements about gold that I have ever seen (sent to me by Bob Taft, but not cinfirmed if they are his own words): "Just consider the silliness of employing a bunch of peasants to dig under the ground for suitable gold ore. Then it is extracted, melted, and formed into pretty bars. Then it is hauled back under ground, as invisible and inaccessible as it was before it was mined. It's use as specie was from more primitive times when it might have existed in sufficient quantity to serve as a medium ... continue (Ricardo) | thread answer
id:ans4134 |
| 4 | 2010-Jun-26 | issue: Economic Remedies Prescribed by the People
prop: PEOPLES BANK
No rush othomas. And I hope you're recovering well. As time goes by I hope many people will be comfortable in contributing something to this issue - even if it's only one time. The rest of us will benefit from all contributions. (Ricardo) | prop. sug.
id:sug4133 |
| 5 | 2010-Jun-21 | issue: Economic Remedies Prescribed by the People
prop: PEOPLES BANK
This week I am grateful for this slow pace wile I recover in hospital from severe pnemonia. (othomas) | prop. sug.
id:sug4132 |
| 6 | 2010-Jun-12 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
Here is a new book that is discussing exactly the topic we are working on:
http://www.amazon.com/Future-Money-Financial-Crisis-Resource/dp/0745329942/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276351128&sr=8-1 (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4131 |
| 7 | 2010-Jun-11 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
Individual sovereignty can be briefly described as the "equal" status we all have when we are born. This does not mean that we are equal in height, weight, color, intelligence, etc. - it simply means that we each have an equal right to live and let live. Collective Sovereignty is established once individual Sovereigns assemble for the purpose of creating something together for the greater good of the whole (like declaring one group's independence from another, or declaring a People's government into existence). However, the "collective" does not have any more right than the individual to "impose" ... continue (Ricardo) | thread answer
id:ans4130 |
| 8 | 2010-Jun-11 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
I will try to answer Alistair's first question, re foundational needs. Life evolved along with Earth and the question of needs for life were never asked in the process of this joined evolution. Energy is provided by the sun and it has been accumulated by geological processes and life processes on Earth. Each form of life has requirements that are not always compatible. The ecological systems have evolved to favor some forms of life at the expense of others.
Now we have an extreme need to provide the requirements of life of our human species without destroying the geology and ecology ... continue (othomas) | thread answer
id:ans4129 |
| 9 | 2010-Jun-11 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
I'm happy with what I'm hearing. The UP site was designed as a central meeting and sharing place - with the ability for final proposals to be listed and selected. It was always important that the people who use the UP system to understand that all kinds of communication (phone, email, other chat rooms, dinners, parties, cafes, etc.) be used to develop and solidify thoughts. And when any individual or group feels they have something to share with any forum on the UP site (or submit a proposition), they may do so. It could be looked ... continue (Ricardo) | thread answer
id:ans4128 |
| 10 | 2010-Jun-10 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
Good to hear some more info on you Othomas. I hope I will be as active when I reach your stage of wisdom. Ricardo, what are your thoughts? I certainly do not want to jeapordise the UP site. I have a couple of people in mind who may be interested in exploring this, but you will know others. Could UP make an official invitation to selected people, delivered by each one of us, seeking to create some wider discussion?
It just seems like waiting for people to turn up on the site is not working, so why not try something ... continue (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4127 |
| 11 | 2010-Jun-10 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
Alistair,
Thank you for continuing this conversation. I would be delighted to participate with others via email in a background effort.
We have both been attracted by the words "UNIFIED PEOPLE WORLD GOVERNMENT" and I joined but have no members in my local group. I am alone here in Mexico but my venue here is Planetary. I am frustrated by contemplating that my health may not last even though my mind is alert at the ending month of my 84th revolution around the sun. I hope the leave some seeds for future thinkers and planners of a Planetary scope.
Ricardo has made a ... continue (othomas) | thread answer
id:ans4126 |
| 12 | 2010-Jun-10 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
Having expressed my concern about the process, I have a suggestion. I know of two people who I feel would be very useful in this discussion. One is into community and has a web site called radicallocalization, and the other has been working on alternative economic models and usury free systems for 30 odd years. I've tried to get both of them onto the UP site but it has not worked. They both have more expertise in this area than I do.
Perhaps we could seek to establish a small working group, communicating by email, to explore the proposal you ... continue (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4125 |
| 13 | 2010-Jun-10 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
Othomas, if I am to consider the details of what you are proposing then there are a number of questions that need to be addressed. First of all, what role do I have in such a system? Surely what you are dealing with is a local issue and so the people who should be voting on it are the people who will be affected by whatever you implement. I am not part of that. The purpose of UP is, I thought, to allow decision making by the people in a specific jurisdiction, rather than by some remote body. But it ... continue (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4124 |
| 14 | 2010-Jun-10 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
Part II
I believe the difference in the approach we take, Othomas, stems from the geographical scope of our activity. You are looking at a community (relatively small, or at least contained, I imagine) which has clear boundaries and scope. I, on the other hand, are seeking a discussion on a global issue.
It is entirley possible, when dealing with local issues, to focus on specific, concrete details. The reason for this is that the context is already set and, presumably, agreed to by all involved. Hence people can engage in a discussion about fine tuning details within that context.
We ... continue (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4123 |
| 15 | 2010-Jun-10 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
I am going to write four separate posts in reponse to Othomas's entry of June 9.
First, Othomas, it seems to me that you have addressed only one part of my question - the How can I help you, and ignored the How can you help me?
What I hear you saying is that I should agree to operate in the way you do - because you find that easier.
Now, I have a desire to be of service and to assist in this process, but I also wish to honour my own needs, and my own process. As I ... continue (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4122 |
| 16 | 2010-Jun-9 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
I would like for you to make some specific proposal. I will be delighted to consider your proposal on any specifics.
I have made a proposal with very few specifics and you can assist me in refining the proposal if you wish to object to any of the specifics.
My ethical position is not easy to explain in general terms but specifics are easier to explain.
We should be able to discuss specifics of a proposed resolution made by either of us. This can lead to a cooperative resolution rather than a diffuse discussion.
(othomas) | thread answer
id:ans4121 |
| 17 | 2010-Jun-9 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
Othomas,
This form of discussion does not work for you and, for the reasons I have stated, your approach has not work for me. I honour what you are doing and believe it is necessary and valuable, but its not where my focus is. I would hope that the UP system would allow space for both of us to engage in the discussion at the level, both geographical and philosophical, that we are choosing to operate on. We are driving two different threads, each with their own purpose.
So when you ask "can we focus our intentions on a proposed declaration" ... continue (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4120 |
| 18 | 2010-Jun-9 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
This type of forum does not work for me.
Can we focus our intentions on a proposed declaration?
I have been away from the computer connection for a few days and have now accepted a suggestion for the Peoples Bank made by Ricardo.
The Peoples bank will implement a system where products and services can be offered. It also implements a system where government value builds over time.
The complete government will involve many more declarations to deal with other issues. The Peoples Bank is a simple method that implements sharing by those who can produce any desired service or material.
What additional facilities are ... continue (othomas) | thread answer
id:ans4119 |
| 19 | 2010-Jun-9 | issue: Economic Remedies Prescribed by the People
prop: PEOPLES BANK
In the list of bank responsibilities, the following could be included (with any edits you wish to make):
Each individual who is lawfully within the jurisdiction, in which the Peopleʼs Bank is authorized to operate, holds and owns outright a title to his or her life; and that title may be deposited by its owner in the Peopleʼs Bank upon reaching the age of accountability; and that this deposit is made in return for periodic loans over the individualʼs lifetime; and that each authorized individual is entitled to a loan of 1,000 Units of Currency per month; and that in order ... continue (othomas) | accepted sug.
id:acc4118 |
| 20 | 2010-Jun-7 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
First, I think of everyone having the opportunity to truly pursue their dreams. I know from experience that it’s hard to get one to eat, drink or sleep in such circumstances. It’s like a nirvana or trancelike state that people get themselves into when they are loving what they are doing and they don’t want to be interrupted. In one way money is not an issue, but in another real sense it is since it may be required to support their trancelike state.
Alistair’s suggests everyone contribute 20 hours (weekly?) towards what he refers to as “yucky jobs”. ... continue (Ricardo) | thread answer
id:ans4117 |
| 21 | 2010-Jun-7 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
I must give Alistair an apology for interrupting his flow of entries between his third and fourth entry of a total of eight. I'll now give some thought to the complete eight entries and respond accordingly.
This is a new format we're using, and I'm certain that we'll adjust as time goes by. It will be helpful in the future, I think, for any one of us to simply give a clear intent that we'll be posting a series (name number) of entries to complete a thought. That way all other participants will be aware and ... continue (Ricardo) | thread answer
id:ans4116 |
| 22 | 2010-Jun-7 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
Eventually all the tasks would be fulfilled and everyone would be free to do what they wanted to do. I am happy to do garbage collection because I feel the trade I made is fair. So the energy of flow is in fact used as a means of comapring value of productive tasks, but only on the margins, and only in a direct exchange of productive effort with no ability to accumulate profit. The amusing thing is that the dirtiest jobs end up being the most valuable, and so we reverse the current system of value.
Of course what ... continue (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4115 |
| 23 | 2010-Jun-7 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
Of course there are many problems one can envisage, and well there should be, but that simply opens the opportunity for creative solutions. For example, there are going to be some tasks that no one wants to do. Some basic needs, such as garbage collection, for example, just don't fullfill anyone's creative expression. But there is a solution to this that does not infringe on anyone's freedom or impose a demand on anyone. The solution lies in running a market in which these uninspiring tasks can be traded. Let us envisage that, after everyone has filled their allotted 20 hours ... continue (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4114 |
| 24 | 2010-Jun-7 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
The key here is to envisage a society in which productive capacity far exceeds fundamental demand. What do I mean by fundamental demand?
This is the demand that would be generated by a community or society that was operating in a way that balanced and met the competing needs for self expression and belonging and was also structured in a manner that optimised the use of raw materials and productive energy.
I cannot proove it, but intuitively, given how productive society has become, and given that such a society would have much less need for external stimulation to fill the gnawing ... continue (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4113 |
| 25 | 2010-Jun-7 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
Find a person who is completely aligned with their creative passion, giving full expression to it, in a way that enhances their community, resulting in a deep sense of belonging, and I will show you a happy, fulfilled person. In this state, our desire to accumlate external things diminishes dramtically. In this state, our desire to place our own external needs above the genuine heartfelt needs of others in our community vanishes. I think we can all recognize this.
It is for this reason that I claim we do not need a means of comparing productive effort. Who determines that ... continue (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4112 |
| 26 | 2010-Jun-7 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
Coming from this place, one then asks, do we need money?
If we see money as an energy of flow, then what role does money play? Let us recall the reason why money was introduced. It became too complex to manage trade through barter and a more universal system was required to manage the interface. But does this problem exist any more? No it does not. We actually do not use money for ths purpose anymore. It is actually quite rare for most people to use money as a means of exchange. Now money is used for other things, primarily ... continue (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4111 |
| 27 | 2010-Jun-7 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
I’m focusing on the two foundational factors Alistair has introduced: “everyone’s free expression of talents and creativity” (which is a need in and of itself) and “everyone’s needs (which I would assume to mean all the other needs such as housing, food, medical assistance, etc.) being met”. Within that focus I’ll try to answer his question pertaining to the proposed function political and economic systems.
In preparation for defining these two systems I’m keep in mind Alistair’s reference to our individual and collective tendency to develop a tension between our “talent/creative” energies and our “perceived importance” of how our ... continue (Ricardo) | thread answer
id:ans4110 |
| 28 | 2010-Jun-7 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
The problem is, of course, that this whole system is founded on greed, but greed only works in a scarcity consciousness, because greed thrives on the sense of lack. If you can have all your needs met when you need them, why hoard anything? Why accumulate wealth if it does not actually give you anything more?
Now we come back to the nature of money. At its deepest level, at its spiritual core if you like, money is a medium of flow designed to facilitate my interaction with the wider community. It is the energy of flow through which I ... continue (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4109 |
| 29 | 2010-Jun-7 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
So let's imagine I am operating beyond scarcity. What are the energetic dynamics that I desire? I desire to fully express my creative talents. I desire to have my needs met in a way that enables me to continue to express myself in freedom, and, I desire to belong to my community and offer my love and support to my community. What do I need in order to achieve this?
I need to have the resources necessary to enable me to express my creativity. I need to attract to me other people to collaborate with in order to fullfill the expression ... continue (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4108 |
| 30 | 2010-Jun-7 | issue: Creating context for a paradigm shift in society
thread: General Discussion (preliminary and on-going)
In 300 words?
The starting point for me is to ask the questions:
What is money at its most fundamental? and
Why do we need money?
To me, money is an energy of flow. It was designed as a means to facilitate trade. Throughout time, trade and money has been conducted in a consciousness of scarcity. This had some validity as humans lived in a society in which the productive capacity always fell short of meeting the full potential of every member of society.
In North America and Australia, at least, we now live in a society with the technological capacity to eliminate scarcity, ... continue (Alistair) | thread answer
id:ans4107 |
